Recently I had the pleasure of talking with fellow New Zealand author, Lee Murray. She asked questions - I responded, oh yes, that's right, it was an interview! And here it is (please make sure to check out Lee's great blog and subscribe). Thanks for reading.
Welcome William! Give us your personal definition of horror.
How would you describe it: blood curdling spatter, or through the
looking glass, darkly?
I’m not sure my personal definition of horror is different than
standard definitions, but here goes: Horror, in its many guises ‒
fiction, cinema, real events ‒ is a highly subjective phenomena directly
related to the individual’s own interpretation of things that inspire
fear in the imagination. Fear is the greatest component of horror as an
experience. The fear of losing one’s life, the fear of someone close to
you losing their life, the fear of a threat that borders on the
incomprehensible . . . and so on. Horror is an experience that builds in
the mind with the enormity of its potential effect on the individual.
It is apprehension that builds terror in the imagination, to the point
where madness threatens to eclipse the fear with the suffocating and
sublime realization that our greatest fear is real and present. The
imagination is a huge determining aspect of the scope of the horror
experience; and an essential ingredient that must be considered when
writing horror or portraying it [horror] cinematically. If the author
cannot engage the reader’s imagination, to the point where the reader
can visualize and emotionally trigger their own fears in response to
what is in front of them, then the author cannot hope to instill fear
and thereby ‘horror’ in their writing. As Arthur Conan Doyle suggested:
“Where there is no imagination, there is no horror.”
My view is that good, well-crafted, horror must create an emotional and intellectual
response in the
reader that both engages and entertains. It is not enough to bombard the reader with ‘gore for gore’s
sake’ or gross depictions of violence without basis or necessity as part
of the story – horror, must build to the point where it is inescapable,
where the reader has not become desensitized to the point where at the
intersection of plot, action and narrative, they feel nothing. It is in
the apprehension and the emotional interplay of fear where the best
horror lurks. It is a rare skill for an author to be able to build an
experience of horror, which gains purchase via the reader’s subjective
experience of fear; that triggers a deep intellectual response which,
whilst frightening, also provides an element of resolution or
satisfaction in the experience.
The confrontational aspect of horror
fiction (and film) can either harm or heal depending on how it is done.
For example, I distinctly remember, after reading Stephen King’s The Shining,
the thrilling but exhaustive feeling that coursed through me as I put
the book down for the last time. The story replayed in my mind and my
heart beat rapidly as I marveled at the effect that the book had on me.
Tied in with my emotional response was a sense of accomplishment: that I
had got all the way to the end of this massive book, that I had
confronted all the terrible ghosts that haunted the Overlook Hotel, that
I had battled the demonic hedge-maze monsters and that I had survived
the worst monster of all, the frightening and all-too-human monster,
Jack Torrance. It wasn’t a quick read, it didn’t have an abundance of
gore and gross-out violence, and the horror experience wasn’t completely realized until the final chapter where it seems as though everything
has worked out well for Halloran, Wendy and Danny after the tragic death
of Jack and the destruction of the hotel. There is that lingering sense
that beneath the surface, beyond the brightness of those who ‘shine
on’, the darkness threatens to return.
So, in light of my own personal
opinions about horror, you have probably guessed by now that I prefer
‘quiet horror’, the kind that creeps up on you for maximum sublimity. I
also like reading more visceral and extreme horror by authors like
Edward Lee and Jack Ketchum, but I don’t get the same response to it as I
do with more subtle and intricately crafted works like King’s The Shining, Susan Hill’s The Woman in Black, or Ghost Story by Peter Straub.
In many countries, genre fiction is considered the stepchild
to mainstream literature, and horror even more so. Do you think this
true of New Zealand? [And what can we do?]
Mention NZ Horror and most people would cite Peter Jackson as being
its main proponent. Indeed, the history of NZ Horror is evident in a
relatively short film history dating back to the late ‘70s, but not so
in the history of our literature. Examples of works exhibiting various
tropes and themes found in international mainstream horror fiction can
be traced back through select works by some of NZ’s leading writers of
their day. The likes of past (and present) NZ literary notables: Maurice
Gee (Under the Mountain, and Firestarter), Ronald Hugh Morrieson (The Scarecrow), and Katherine Mansfield (The Daughters of the Late Colonel).
All had elements of the horrific in their work, usually of the
quasi-gothic variety with dark and ghostly romanticised scenes. Indeed,
many of New Zealand’s leading fiction authors have been noted as having
various ‘dark’ themes, a synchronicity shared with our cinematic
productions. Much has been made of the Kiwi Gothic, but usually only in
reference to film in this country:
The Kiwi Gothic constructs New Zealand not as a place of some pastoral idyll but rather as an environment where danger and horror lurk everywhere. The Antipodean gothic is generally considered to be an expression of the settler anxiety that derived from the confrontation with a hostile and alien environment, such as the native New Zealand bush. Unlike the European gothic, which often tells ghost stories set in old castles, the Kiwi version of the gothic often deals with alienation, family traumas and uncanny experiences in very familiar places.
The concept of Kiwi Gothic in NZ cinema can be quite easily aligned
to our fiction. The same characteristics and tropes are readily
available in most contemporary NZ fiction. Unfortunately, the best and
brightest of New Zealand authors of dark genre fiction have found more
success overseas than here in our own country. I don’t even think that
the literary elite of this country even consider horror to be a literary
genre, let alone a part of the NZ literary canon and in some ways they
would be correct. We don’t really have a firm tradition of
stereo-typical horror fiction being written in this country (or at least
being set here in NZ). I can’t recall ever reading or seeing a book
written by a New Zealander about werewolves, zombies or vampires,
roaming about our green countryside.
Most NZ authors (myself included)
of horror, seem to understandably appeal to a greater international
audience, rather than a small regional one where the best-seller lists
are populated by sports biographies, cooking books and the occasional
historical drama. It is almost too hard to break into the restrictive NZ
literary market as a horror author, let alone an independent writer of
the dark stuff. Any author of dark fiction who seems to be moderately
successful, has achieved that success outside of the NZ market. There
are a few exceptions, such as the brilliant and dark works of Mike
Johnson (Dumb Show, and Travesty), paranormal author
Eleanor Gill and the dark fantasy works of Elizabeth Knox, and then
there are the crime fiction authors who write gritty thrillers such as
Paul Cleave, Ben Sanders and Vanda Symons, but even then these authors
mostly achieved their initial successes on international best-seller
charts.
The only way works of horror can be accepted as a viable New Zealand
genre, is if the reading public accepts them, seeks them out and
purchases them on a regular basis through regional distribution
channels, which also sell other NZ books. If the reader buys one of
these hypothetical books knowingly; that is, knowing that it is a New
Zealand horror story, it is advertised as such and appeals because of
its genre basis, then we are halfway there. If enough local readers order said
NZ horror books, then a channel will be created due to popular demand,
but until there is enough of a trend in the fickle NZ book-buying market
place, the main route for books of this nature will be either through
savvy local suppliers and/or authors who know how to market on a
regional level. Unfortunately, as mentioned previously, the market-place
is so much bigger internationally that it does not make much financial
sense to sell books locally, as so much still needs to be done to create
awareness AND demand, for our particular genre. Because these
distribution channels are currently so tightly controlled by a select
network of suppliers and publishing houses, it is extremely difficult
for small players to meet the same demands of a reading public who have
settled largely for whatever is placed before them as representative of
our literary culture and what is seen to be of the most popular appeal.
Read: what will sell the most.
This
also implies, that if an author (of horror) is not published by one of
the main traditional publishing companies in NZ, then their chance of
acceptance by the literary community (including readers) is very slim
indeed. The horror genre has always had a certain amount of stigma
attached to it anyway, no matter what country it is from. I think a
large part of the problem for horror authors trying to get a foothold in
the NZ market, is that we are comparatively such a small market-place.
The fact that international statistics generally show that the horror
genre is near the bottom in terms of sales and readership, also betrays
the fact that when you transfer those same stats to the NZ market it is
even less. The NZ reading public has a propensity for non-fiction which
is our biggest seller according to recent surveys[i]; this fact alone
makes the possibility of success, with one of the least popular
genre-types, a rare thing indeed and is no surprise to those of us who
have tried to get horror works published in this country. Thankfully,
there have recently been a few small publishing houses who have started
publishing dark fiction here. Independent publishers like Paper Road Press and Steam Press
are producing quality horror/dark fantasy titles, but also carry other
slip-stream genre titles due to necessity (I presume).
Horror, will
probably never be the bread and butter of NZ publishing unless it also
serves an international market (especially digitally). Although, in saying
that, with an ever-increasing population and small enclaves of writers
of dark fiction popping up around the country; potentially, it could be a
growth market with the right marketing and distribution network, but in
my opinion would need a pioneering publishing company (or author) to
take the reins and drive quality works of dark fiction to market in a
sustainable and stimulation manner.
What can be done in the future, to open the market-place for NZ
authors of dark fiction? Authors need to stand up and take hold of the
reins and write distinctly New Zealand horror and not be afraid to be
pigeon-holed as horror authors. Perhaps, Elizabeth Knox has been the
leading proponent of this attitude – she has written publicly of her
love of the horror genre and the influence it has had on her own work.
Knox’s novel Wake could be seen as a prime example of what a good NZ horror novel should be:
1.) It is set in New Zealand
2.) It is written in a distinctly New Zealand vernacular
3.) it is pitched at the New Zealand reading public as a horror novel and,
4.) it has been accepted by the New Zealand reading public as a reasonably popular choice at the time of publication.
The New Zealand Listener even noticed this point of difference in
Knox’s work, compared to the majority of NZ fiction that is usually
classed as literary fiction:
Elizabeth Knox has long shown a studied indifference to those readers (and critics) who demand a strict separation between genre and literary fiction, to the benefit of both.
The same critic, Craig Ranapia, goes on to astutely point out that:
Horror fiction – and that’s what Wake splendidly is – will always be the red-haired stepchild of that already disreputable literary clan, genre fiction. How could it be otherwise? No matter how popular horror fiction is, those who trade in knowing what we most deeply fear, and why, are never entirely welcome guests.
And it is perhaps in this last statement that the answer to Lee’s
question lies; like an undead zombie caught in a perpetual state of
‘dead-alive,’ the horror genre (New Zealand or otherwise), is always
attempting to rise above the hubris that keeps it buried on the literary
outskirts of acceptable mainstream popular fiction.
Poetry has always been a means of addressing our personal
demons. Does this mean dark poetry is more likely to gain wider
readership? What has been your experience with your volume Corpus
Delicti?
No, not at all. ANY type of poetry, dark or otherwise, only appeals
to a very limited market. Despite dealing with subjects many other poets
choose to ignore, dark poetry has a very select readership and in my
experience is not widely read, let alone understood. Once again, because
the horror genre has such a small slice of genre sales ‒ unless it is
rebranded as something else like Stephen King’s works ‒ it stands to
reason that dark/horror poetry has an even smaller slice of that same
pie. Dark poetry is a great way to confront issues and fears from the
writer’s perspective, but depending on the tastes of the reader of
verse, the appeal is limited by both the formal aspects of the poetry
and the scope of the subject matter and the way it is transcribed. Most
people find poetry tough-going at the best of times, especially poetry
that doesn’t operate on a simplistic, superficial level. Poetry that
deals with difficult themes and is technically adept and intellectually
complex, will always only appeal to a select few and usually then, only
other poets or academics who do nothing else but study the form and
technique of poetry. That is, it seems to ‘take one, to understand one.’
If, for example, you are a poet who does not write in traditional forms
and who doesn’t employ conventional rhyme schemes, then your audience
will be limited once again, as opposed to the poet who writes
‘sing-song’ verse where everything rhymes to the point where the poem
just becomes a cliché or facsimile (style-wise) of gothic poets like
Edgar Allen Poe, and reeking of imitation.
Personally speaking, I don’t like contemporary rhyming verse, and
almost always prefer a free-verse style that allows the poet to tell a
story, as much as describe something in an aesthetic manner. Poetry
brought me to short fiction and short fiction to long-form narrative and
for that reason I feel it is important for me, as a writer, to continue
to practice the craft of poetry to complement my fiction writing
skills. To be able to write succinctly and with impact and meaning is a
skill I learned from years of writing poetry and I guess without having
that vent of creative expression, my personal demons would have existed
more off the page than on. So, yes, I have addressed and entertained
many personal experiences and imaginations with my poetry but unless a
reader identifies with my experience ‒interspersed with literary style,
technique and the ‘meaning’ I want to imply and reveal ‒ then it really
has no appeal to a wider readership. Many readers weave their own
experiences and meaning into the poems and I love that and it is
something I aspire to achieve with my poetry: that it will at least
invoke a response or provoke the imagination on some level with the
reader.
I am currently working on a new collection, titled Beyond the Black Gate
which is deliberately written in a confessional style that focuses on a
single subject in order to solicit identification with the reader. The
collection deals with the topic of depression. The Black Gate is a play
on the conventional use of the Black Dog as a metaphorical symbol/mascot
for depression. Here is the first poem which is written in a loose
traditional form (sonnet) and with a subtle rhyme scheme, but also
written in a contemporary manner:
Black Gate Sonnet
This is no ‘Black Dog’; such an animal
does not exist. This curse names of itself
The Black Gate – it’s mind is all of its own
a sentry of pain guards one’s mental health
permitting entry to none but the self
once inside, the gate is closed until death –
comes calling, or the night grants some respite
as black mists swallow the heart’s shallow breath
and the dark veil envelopes the sick mind
shutting out the world’s grim realities,
and once again the Black Gate covets time;
imprisoned life, jailed so mercilessly.
Deep inside, the mind heals slowly until inured
out the Black Gate goes, the self, degrees improved.
There are two main reasons for my use of a semi-traditional style or
form in the lead poem. For me, poetry always follows and builds upon
tradition and the canon which comes before – mainly because poetry has
existed for centuries and most human subjects and experience have been
written of previously, by far greater poets than myself. I am a big fan
of Shakespeare and Donne’s sonnets and usually model any poems in the
sonnet form on a select example by one of these two greats. I do so as a
nod to my heroes and also just to leave readers in no doubt, that what
they are about to read is poetry and, hopefully, intellectually and
aesthetically challenging poetry that will demand they at least know how
to read poetry. Once the initial poem is read, then I switch
predominantly to the free-verse style I championed above. The stories
begin, imbued with all the tropes and technique used in traditional
verse forms, but written in a contemporary narrative style. I love using
metaphor, simile, analogy, and allegory amongst other poetic devices. I
also love cryptography and often hide words and secret anagrams in my
verse, in the hope that an astute reader might break the code and reveal
another layer of meaning that enlarges the scope of the poem.
Sometimes, I also like to subvert the process and add archaic
terminology or foreign phrases to reference another (usually classic)
poem within the free-verse contemporary form. The collection essentially
relays my own experience of depression, with a selection of poetry that
deals with the dark side of this disease of the mind and also the light
that comes after the darkness has gone. The verse is not horror poetry
per se but it deals with fundamental human experiences of dark themes
related to the depressive state. Hopefully, it might resonate with
someone else who suffers from the same malady and, at the end of the
day, it will be a cathartic experience for myself upon completion.
If you were stuck with [insert name of favorite
international horror writer] in an elevator, what is the one thing you
would hope they would take away about New Zealand horror.
Interesting question. Of course, it would have to be the ‘king of
horror’ – Stephen King – trapped in the elevator with me. I would hope
to convince him that New Zealand was a highly literate culture, with the
gothic underpinnings of a dark and tumultuous colonial and cultural
history that readily lent itself to producing fine works of literature
that employ the genre tropes and practices of the best horror writers.
That we are growing, not just in terms of population but in terms of
ideas and the scope of our realization, that we can indeed be top
players in an international market place. That we have a distinct voice
(when we are not afraid to use it) and that that voice is unique and
distinctive and interesting to the rest of the world, if done properly. I
would suggest he looks at the landscape and the people in order to
understand our literature and to see the dynamic potential of future
works of dark fiction, set in such a dramatic and sublime environment.
You’re overnighting in a crypt with only one candle, what book are you reading?
The Collected Works of Edgar Allan Poe.
Can you name some Kiwi horror talent we should have on our radar right now? Anyone coming through the ranks who we should note?
A hard question merely by the fact that my recommendation is only as
good as my reading experience. I’m sure that there are NZ authors of
horror who I am not aware of and who I have not read and if you are out
there, please accept my personal invitation to join my Facebook group: NZ Horror Writers. Okay, well the ones I have read and enjoyed are as follows: Tim Jones (Extreme Weather Events, Landfall and Transported) although he’d probably suggest his work was more speculative fiction than horror. Cat Connor (her Byte series especially), Gary Cross (Borderland), Paul Haines (deceased – The Last Days of Kali Yuga) and Paul Mannering (Tankbread series) to name a few. I’ve also heard that a recently released book called Into the Mist
is a terrifying read by a talented New Zealand author, goes by the name
Lee Murray – you might’ve heard of her [wink]. Unfortunately, I wish I
could give you more names of new talent writing horror in New Zealand
but I have yet to read/hear of them.
Aw thank you. [Blushes]. Moves on. You’ve written a book on
self-publishing, advising writers about building their platforms. Any
special tips for horror writers?
Most of what I have learned about self-publishing, outside of my own
experience, has been from my interactions with writers who have
successfully achieved best-seller status as independent authors. I’m not
sure I can offer any advice for horror writers specifically, but for
all indie/self-published authors – having your own website is a
no-brainer. Even a blog will do, where you can list your books with live
links so that your readers can purchase them and where you can build an
email list for future promotions and interactions with your readers.
There are a whole bunch of things you can do to promote yourself, but
perhaps the best piece of advice I can offer is to find a mentor or
role-model. Someone who is where you want to be and who is happy to
share advice on how to get there. After interviewing over fifteen
successful authors who have been able to maintain financially viable
existences as full-time writers, key commonalities stand out.
In the
first volume of Secrets of Best-Selling Self-Published Authors I analyzed the interviews and compared answers so that I could summarize
the best practices of each and all of the interviewees. My best advice
would be to do your homework and take advice from those who have
actually achieved best-seller status (if that’s where you want your
writing to take you) and, perhaps most importantly, enjoy what you do,
don’t give up, and build your passion so that even if you don’t earn the
big dollars, you’ll have a damn good time along the way. If you are
interested in what the top-dogs have to say about their self-publishing
adventures, you can buy a copy of Secrets of Best-Selling Self-Published
Authors here. Also, all the interviews are available via my new website where you can also download a cheat-sheet that will help you boost your online presence and sales efforts.
Your worst fear? Is it a feature of any of your own work?
Sharks give me the heebie-jeebies and no, I seem to have avoided them in my work to date.
Work you’re most proud of and why?
I guess Blood Related
because I have invested so much time in doing it properly and tweaking
it to be the best it can be as my flag-ship publication. I am also
really proud of Fresh Fear: Contemporary Horror,
which I edited and compiled. It was a real learning curve putting
together this anthology and put me in the position of being able to
connect and communicate with some great writers that I have looked up to
for so long. Authors like Ramsey Campbell, J.F. Gonzalez and Charlee
Jacob to name a few. I have just recently received the rights back and
will be republishing a new edition with a new cover and new lay-out, so I
am looking forward to being able to give it a new lease of life and
continue to promote the authors included.
I have read Fresh Fear. That is one scary book! So what’s on your horizon? Any new projects?
Lots of things. I always have at least two projects on the go at any
given time. As mentioned, I am working on a new collection of poetry
titled Beyond the Black Gate; I am also working on a sequel to Blood Related
which is looking on track for a December release all going well. I have
a few other projects that will keep me very busy until the end of the
year and should be able to maintain a steady publication schedule
throughout the remainder of 2016 into 2017. A new collection of short
(dark) fiction is nearly complete, as is a collection of miscellaneous
multi-genre fiction, tentatively titled ‘Quirks’ – both of which should
be published before Christmas. To stay tuned for details, please
subscribe to my website. For a limited time I am giving away a free
digital edition of my collection, Dreams of Thanatos to new subscribers here. You can also follow me on Amazon to get regular updates whenever I release a new book. Thanks for the great interview, Lee.
Thanks for stopping by William!
LINKS
Website: http://williamcookwriter.com
Twitter: http://twitter.com/williamcook666
[i] http://www.booksellers.co.nz/members/services-membership/contemporary-fiction-aotearoa